Selling 600 Sandwiches a Day in NYC with Sandwell Founder Andy Gottlieb

Alan Li (00:01) Today's guest is Andy Gottlieb, who is the founder of Sandwell based in New York City. Andy previously worked in finance, sous chef at some of the top places in New York, was a CFO of a hospitality group, and ultimately left to start his own sandwich shop business. I've had a couple of Andy sandwiches in the Upper West Side location and can vouch that they are delicious and also healthy-ish. Andy, thanks so much for joining the opening soon podcast.

Andy Gottlieb (00:29) Awesome. Pleasure to be here. Thanks, Alan.

Alan Li (00:31) All right. well, we'd love to hear a little bit more about how you all got started. Why did you decide to leave their career in finance and just start cooking?

Andy Gottlieb (00:41) Sure. So I, when I was back in college, was working in finance, enjoyed it, was working at banks and internships, and I'd always cooked for fun. I'd always enjoyed that, I'd always cook for friends, I'd cooked for the teams, I'd always always found a release in that, right? Where in the everyday parts of life, everything else is busy, but things seem to slow down when I was cooking. Ironically, I wasn't very good at it when I was young, but I liked the process more than anything else. And

It's something that as I was looking towards it and I was looking to graduate. I was going I had a job at a big bank. And in doing so, I worked my way through restaurants my whole time in school. And I took a minute where I was like, Okay, what do I want to do? Who do I be wanna be around? And I loved the people in restaurants. That really was it for me, right? I like cooking. I liked the people. And it was something that was really tangible for me of that kind of experience where I

enjoyed a long shift working a and had fun afterwards. And

Alan Li (01:45) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (01:46) so that was really that was something I found. I I was really thinking why am I doing this and what I'm have going on. So I was twenty one and I was like, the bank will always be there. That'll be fine. And so I gave back my signing bonus instead and went to culinary school afterwards. you know I

Alan Li (02:03) So you didn't even

you you didn't go you you didn't even start.

Andy Gottlieb (02:07) Yeah, I I'd worked in internships and I worked in yeah, different banks all through school, but I

Alan Li (02:13) Eight.

Andy Gottlieb (02:14) hadn't I hadn't officially started and as I was about to, I said, Look, I think I want to go down this path instead and we'll see what's there.

Alan Li (02:19) Wow.

Andy Gottlieb (02:20) It ended up being, you know, the I was working on the CDO desk that was right before the economy crashed in two thousand eight. So I think the whole floor was empty in six months anyways. You know, if I'd known that, you know, maybe I could have done something. But but it's I didn't have that good of intuition.

I just knew I really liked where I was at and and what I was doing in restaurants.

Alan Li (02:42) Yeah. Well, mean, I I also I enjoy cooking too. I I find it therapeutic. I find s making things with your hands. and you know, oftentimes you're eating and making things for other people

and having

Andy Gottlieb (02:53) Mm-hmm.

Alan Li (02:54) a communal table and friends and family, it it's it is very therapeutic and it's almost meditative. and I I enjoy it as well. going from there to not even taking, you know, a a nice finance job is a big leap though.

Andy Gottlieb (03:08) Yeah, yeah.

Sh f for sure. And it

Alan Li (03:11) How how did y how did that happen?

Andy Gottlieb (03:13) I think it was going from there, and again, I paved my way through school working at restaurants. And I liked that managed chaos, because you're also able to escape into that. Right? Where on a busy restaurant service, it's different than cookie at home, right? Where you have some friends around, whatever it might be. Even on a busy restaurant, though, you're in the rhythm of the people around you. You have to be in tune and in sync of

how that goes and I found that very entrancing. Like I I really enjoyed that because even though there was you know it's a different kind of meditative state, right? of what was going on, but it was certainly this feeling of being able to do that and then having the immediate reaction from people, right? And a restaurant business I found that immediate feedback where someone enjoyed it, they didn't. Something's burned or it's not. And these are things that I really found that to be something that was

worth pursuing. Right. And again, I was twenty one. I said, look, we'll see what happens. Life is long. And I'm so happy I did, because even though I I'm still a finance geek at heart, right, you know, I still wake up and read the journal every morning, but I like this element as well, being able to balance it, and being able to have an expression within restaurants as well with food.

Alan Li (04:29) Cool. I

and so where where did you end up doing culinary school?

Andy Gottlieb (04:34) I went to the F CI in lower Manhattan, the French Culinary Institute. Yeah.

Alan Li (04:37) Okay. Cool. So how

long was culinary school how was that experience?

Andy Gottlieb (04:43) It was it

was pretty quick. It was something that I found, you know, when people ask me now, should I go to a culinary school? How does it go? It was a nine month experience for me, right? It was part-time. I worked at restaurants while I was there. And it really just teaches you a a shared vocabulary, I felt. So I could walk into a restaurant and still be and and somewhat understand what was happening, right? So I but it doesn't it you know, people sometimes go into a culinary school and walk out and say, Now I'm a master chef. It's like, no.

Alan Li (05:12) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (05:12) buddy, that's gonna be that's a minute, right?

And I think that's something that was very helpful for me as I went through it was just helping me understand how when I was switching careers to go into returning to something I hadn't trained for that much before, helped me walk in with a sense of understanding of what I was really getting into and what I wanted to do within the field.

Alan Li (05:36) Yeah. did going through that experience sort of confirm or deny any prior beliefs that you had about becoming a professional chef or or working in the industry? I know you had already

Andy Gottlieb (05:49) Sure.

Alan Li (05:50) in college, but what were some of the learnings?

Andy Gottlieb (05:53) I feel like so it's interesting. I feel like every seven, eight years there's this transition where everything I think I knew is a little bit different. And

that might just be getting old. you

Alan Li (06:04) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (06:06) know, as I've gone through this process. But it's something that you know, through there it really confirmed that I wanted to work in restaurants. It really confirmed that I wanted to work with people who work in restaurants. It confirmed that I wanted to

be a part of this community of this incredible group that in serving people, right? And finding that passion for that was real. And I think that was the biggest, you know, it was a binary one or zero. Do I want to keep on going or not? you know, the very first day of culinary school, they give you a set of really dull knives and I almost took my finger off. And it was this

Alan Li (06:49) wow.

Andy Gottlieb (06:49) moment where I was sitting there in the room going, no.

no, what am I doing? Do you think I can call the managing director back? And it

Alan Li (06:58) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (06:58) was this moment where I was like, okay, was it like a I believe in choice, right? And and you have this sense of intentionality to life and saying, okay, you know what? I really want to do this. How am I gonna go about it? How am I gonna be successful doing this? I should probably learn how to sharpen my knives. and these are the processes that have gone through that. now how that has evolved, at least for me.

has been different. You know, when I was 21 years old, I thought that be all and end all was to run a three mission star restaurant and have 40 courses on the menu. I run a sandwich shop now. And it, you know, there's been a path that that has gone through that process to help get there and to learn the skill sets along the way. But I think that it definitely helped help me realize that it's something I want to do

I think I saw some other people who they thought was a bit more romantic than they realized. Right? They walk in and they saw Bobby Flay and they say, Whoo, I like that guy. And he's cool. But he's worked incredibly hard to get to where he is and then make you clean

Alan Li (08:03) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (08:03) all the potatoes first.

Alan Li (08:05) I see.

Andy Gottlieb (08:06) some people did not like.

Alan Li (08:07) Yeah. well I I know you you worked at quite a few restaurants between now and and you know, back then, but maybe go through some of the the highlights or or wal walk us through some of you know the experiences that were most impactful to you to get to where you are today.

Andy Gottlieb (08:30) you know, after I was in school I went back to I I went to college in DC and I went back to to Georgetown. Correct.

Alan Li (08:37) Georgetown, right? Okay. It

I I've also noticed that there's quite a few I mean to the f the sweet green founders are also from Georgetown. Is there something

Andy Gottlieb (08:46) Yeah.

Alan Li (08:46) about Georgetown that I don't know, creates restaurateurs or food founders or or something of that sort?

Andy Gottlieb (08:54) And Hannah Chang from Amy Chang's was also at Georgetown in my year.

Alan Li (08:58) wow.

Andy Gottlieb (09:00) They, you know, I think there's a really I was a part of the business school there, finance and accounting.

Alan Li (09:05) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (09:06) And I think there's a wonderful entrepreneurship program there and a sense of really taking almost a, you know, within the undergraduate business school, taking a lot of almost a liberal arts in business.

So it's not just only taking finance, but we have to take a broad sense of these classes. And they opened the sweet green on my block senior year, 40 feet from my house. I you know, I thought the frozen yogurt was the best part, what did I know? And

Alan Li (09:36) Wow.

Andy Gottlieb (09:36) because the guys were year older than me. but it was I don't know, I l like to think so as we've gone through this. you know, the food in the campus wasn't that good. So maybe we had to find it elsewhere. We had to create it.

Alan Li (09:50) I see.

There you go.

Andy Gottlieb (09:51) Yeah.

Sorry, Leos. and so I went back to DC when I was there and I worked with a former White House chef, Frank Rudo, who was really rooted in some incredibly old school traditions, right? And it's something that I found extremely formative through that process of there's really no shortcuts.

Right. You can have choices

Alan Li (10:21) Mm-hmm.

Andy Gottlieb (10:21) of how you want to cook and you can make those decisions and what you're doing, but it really is the art of how to make this food truly delicious and soulfully delicious using these old these tr traditional methods. And it was part of this you know, Nouvelle cuisine of this modern American-Italian hybrid that's popular close to twenty years ago, man. And that was there and

it really has stuck with me of some of these things of how do you build that into flavor, make it feel fresh, make it feel modern, but

Alan Li (10:58) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (10:59) have that be the presentation almost, but have the actual basis be old school cooking. and one of the things, you know, the healthiest part has come later in life as I've gone through it. But he had cooked for a lot of presidents because he worked in the White House and he'd been tasked by first ladies to make things without red meat.

And so

Alan Li (11:19) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (11:20) to how to make how do you make turkey just fantastic and not just that weird turkey burger, right? How do you make these how do you make the chicken the star of the show rather than the thing people order because it's the the bottom of the menu that, you know, okay. And I think it's something that really helped me understand that and find these techniques to celebrate these ingredients for themselves, rather than trying to make it into effectiveness something else, rather than trying to, you know,

I've never understood the things that are just trying to be the something version of that is weird, right? everything impossible or chicken with apostrophes or whatever it might be.

Alan Li (12:01) Sure.

Andy Gottlieb (12:01) But taking these foods and just making them awesome in their own right. And knowing how the game disk of turkey can be complemented by different herbs and spices and cooking techniques, again, rather trying to mask it. And I think that was it's something that.

It's really strongly stuck with me of how to just celebrate flavors for what they are as I've gone through them. there. So I, you know, I f I spent a while there and and I spent a long time thinking that would take those and translate those into other restaurants or whatever I would do, and I hadn't really envisioned a life without cooking. And I found out when I was about twenty-five, twenty-six, that I had to have reconstructive footroaching both my feet. I had

just a natural

Alan Li (12:51) He said reconstructive foot surgery? wow.

Andy Gottlieb (12:53) on both my feet.

I had naturally like my my feet were a little wonky and then I played rugby in school and had brothers and had it over the years I had some issues and they're like look you work on your feet fifteen hours a day this is this is not great. And so I had to be off my feet because they had to take what take each foot apart, put it back together, recover and then do the other one.

And so I was off my feet for about a year and a half, two years. And

Alan Li (13:26) Wow.

Andy Gottlieb (13:27) it was what I thought was gonna be the worst experience of my life. And it turned out to be this weird blessing in disguise that life works in mysterious ways. Cause I ended up par working with a friend who was opening seven restaurants at once, all in DC, and needed help managing the financing and managing the build outs and from a chef's perspective, what to do. And I all of a sudden

Was worth it was like, okay, thanks. Let's do this. And I realized I love building restaurants. I just loved it. And I realized there was a life to this business that was perhaps beyond a kitchen. It can be a love being in a kitchen, but also how what else goes into this? And I had never really thought about that. I spent every waking moment thinking about ingredients, thinking about techniques, thinking about okay, what if we pair this with that? But not,

Alan Li (14:14) Mm-hmm.

Andy Gottlieb (14:15) well, okay, how do you design a kitchen intelligently? How do you

have the right flow so that it goes smoothly. How do you market something? How do you finance something? All things that you need to do for a restaurant to be successful rather than just the best you know dish you might find. And it was incredibly opening for that.

Alan Li (14:35) Yeah. What in what y period was this?

Andy Gottlieb (14:39) This was about 15 years ago maybe. Yeah, so it it it it was something that I was still in DC. I was doing that and I found that to be

so

beyond eye opening and unexpected. I thought it was gonna be the longest year of my life and I was making plans for grand parties. I could I could cook all the food and I was walking again and there. And instead I found myself, you know, hobbling through these half-built restaurants, loving the process and loving it's a cra you know, I don't recommend loving opening restaurants. It's a it's a intense time sometimes, but I love going through all these processes. But it's something that I found intrinsically satisfying.

'cause it's a puzzle. You know, what's the budget? What do you not have in the budget? What do you have to spend money on? What do you find as a vintage thing that adds that complementary character? Every aspect of this I just found fascinating.

Alan Li (15:35) Yeah. I mean, all those experiences sound like they probably will set you really set you up really well for for starting your own business, obviously with you know, having built many restaurants with other people's dimes and the foundational experience at the White House. You are also it looks like you also did like some property management as well, and then were a CFO. So you then you got really deep in the weeds of like the numbers. Could you describe a little bit about

Andy Gottlieb (15:59) That's right.

Alan Li (16:00) that experience as well?

Andy Gottlieb (16:01) Sure. So I moved back to New York to be with my my girlfriend, now wife. And when I was there, we actually lived in the West Village above the Little Owl.

Alan Li (16:17) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (16:17) And we would walk our dog a night, and her favorite person in the world was Joey Campanero, the chef at Little Owl, because he would sit outside and pet her.

different meatballs on the side. And so she loved Joey more than me, his dog, than but anyone else in this world. And we would get to talking. We'd have a glass of wine, we'd hang out, and over time we became close. You know, we became we would have this relationship. Again, we lived two floors above the restaurant. our families became close and that was a natural development i i in

our dynamic. He we we got to talking, he was looking for a CFO. So I was advising him little bit of what that might look like. I said, look, here's with some things you might need. And after a little while he said, Well, you've described all these things. I don't know if you noticed this, you just described yourself. Is that is that

Alan Li (17:14) Ha ha ha.

Andy Gottlieb (17:15) is that something you might be interested in? And it was such a natural feeling that I've taken with me strongly is this ability to, you know, I don't know if I've looked for a job for

however how long, but to have this sense instead of having these organic conversations of what's next and you know, working with this people, you know, of things that feel right.

Alan Li (17:44) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (17:45) And it was natural. I loved his restaurants, I loved partner Mike Price, I loved being in the village, and that's something that was incredibly fun and rewarding of this balance, 'cause again

Still

a finance nerd, always will. And having how do I help this restaurant group be the best version of themselves? How do I, you know, even if I wasn't cooking, right? How do I help them find their success in other ways? How do I enable the teammates for success? How do I really embody hospitality throughout the company so that it naturally flows to our customers, right? and I learned, you know, I worked with them for eight e eight years and it's something that really that

is truly ingrained in me is how do you have hospitality every step of the way? How do you have that be the core of what you do so that everything else comes together, right? Everything

Alan Li (18:37) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (18:37) else, you know, I I remember being a young chef and I couldn't understand why some restaurants are popular and others weren't. I could I didn't get it. I said, well, this place objectively has a better burger, but this place is always busy. And I didn't

Alan Li (18:51) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (18:51) really understand the service element of the hospitality element and how critical that is to

in order to be successful is to not just to your guests, but to have it be an a an energy, a vibe throughout the group that creates this dynamic of warmth and positivity that's that turns into real business, right? And turns it it sounds cheesy, but it turns into

Alan Li (19:15) Hmm.

Andy Gottlieb (19:16) the things you invest in as a CFO and get excited about.

Alan Li (19:20) What what would you say the you know, if if there's a pie chart of a hundred percent, you know, food is a piece, hospitality and service is the other piece, how how would you how would you split that in terms of importance? And maybe there's another piece in there too, but

Andy Gottlieb (19:39) I feel like it is

You have to have a good product because you can be super nice and the kindest people ever. And if you just put something weird out there, it's like, man, you know, they're nice butt. Right?

Alan Li (19:52) Yeah. Sure.

Andy Gottlieb (19:58) but I don't think it's a pass fail. You either have to have it all or it's a tough sweating.

Alan Li (20:03) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (20:03) right? So even if it's you have to have of that pie chart, you know, maybe sixty percent the product, but I think there's hospitality might

I don't know if the number adds up to a hundred because they're all you know, these all these large numbers I think you have to deliver on a consistent basis that you live with rather than just pretend, right? So I think another element in there is all of the unsung things that make it a frictionless experience. So

Alan Li (20:32) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (20:32) it's hospitality in that it is designed to make it feel smooth to the customer, but it's not just how you're nice and how you steps of service and the way you answer people on the phone.

It's also okay, how do we go through all the steps you never see that make it feel natural when someone walks in the door? You know, they don't see someone polishing the brass for hours, they don't see the relationship with the vendors that make that happen so that all

the

Alan Li (21:00) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (21:00) food comes in timely. Whatever I mean, I think all those aspects, it's like an analogy of the duck on the water where the duck is just chilling and underneath the feet are going crazy there.

Alan Li (21:10) Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (21:13) And I think that's something though those three elements combining of operations product and or systems product and kind of soul for lack of a better term, I think all combine as this this triumvirate to help help deliver a good hospitality restaurant experience.

Alan Li (21:30) Yeah. That makes sense. I like that. Were there other I don't know, interesting keynotes or lessons that you can impart on the audience from being a CFO for, you know, seven, eight years in a hospitality group? 'Cause we have a lot of you know, restaurant owners or aspiring restaurant owners who I'm sure would love to be able to pick your brain about some of these things.

Andy Gottlieb (21:51) It is something that it's a it's a cliche for a reason, it's know your numbers and no going in, right? It's it's not this sense of this is what I could do. It's what do you have to do to do this? It's a it's a cash business.

Alan Li (22:06) Hmm. Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (22:09) And a lot of restaurants have this idea, well, if I can do 150 people a night, this would be amazing. I could buy a boat. Here we are, right?

Alan Li (22:19) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (22:20) And or just I have the restaurant that I've always wanted, right? And say, okay, what I get that. What do you need to spend to keep your lights on? Right? How do you need to do that? And then how do you work backwards from there to make sure that you have those things covered and you're

Alan Li (22:36) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (22:37) able to continue so that you can infuse that with your art, infuse that with the things you believe in and feel strongly about. but make sure that you are really looking at these key numbers.

and cash metrics to help you survive through those times. Right.

Alan Li (22:54) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (22:55) because I think just a spreadsheet's you know it worth worth doing and going through process and saying we could do this, but what do you need if you this is your rent and this is how many cooks you need and staff you need, how are you able to support them all and have this responsibility to do that? is something that a lot of restaurateurs find out the third week they're open.

Alan Li (23:18) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (23:19) and they go through it and they go, Ooh, gotta pay payroll every week. This is tough. But what if it was what what what if it was a ho what if there's a snowstorm, right? And it's

Alan Li (23:27) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (23:28) the these are the things that in going through it, if you're planning an advance through it, you know, it's never it helps it never be as bad as it is, or you think it's never as good as it is. Right? 'Cause your holiday party that's that you use that money to pay your January rent, not not

Alan Li (23:44) Mm

Andy Gottlieb (23:44) some ma you know, massive thing.

Alan Li (23:48) Yeah. how has the rise of TikTok, social media changed your perspective on marketing and spend on marketing? 'Cause I think maybe historically it's obviously find a good location, get good food, great hospitality, good service. But now, you know, you have restaurants going viral, right? And, you know, they bring in thousands or tens of thousands of customers over the next few months, depending on how viral it is. How how do you think about that balance?

Andy Gottlieb (24:18) I think about sustainability and I think that it's a wonderful thing for a lot of businesses where you don't it's been democ democratized to a certain extent where it's not just you open a business, you hope the New York Times reviews you, and you go from there. Right. There was a there was a model where you opened for a long time, up until like maybe twenty ten, twenty twenty twelve, where you open, you do all the right things, you have the PR talk to all the right people.

Spend a fortune on that, right? And then you do some word-of-mouth marketing, but it wasn't a ton of digital marketing back then, right? And you hope for the best. And it was high risk, high reward for restaurants doing that as you went through it, waiting for these things. And I think the ability to have social media do these th and TikTok where people can directly

Create content and talk to their potential customer base is wonderful. You're able to have this direct relationship and get to know somebody on a on a more, you know, depends on the content, more organic basis rather than just what you see on magazine clipping or that. I will say a lot of if we but for better or for worse, I don't know, this is what we've approached it as, is you have to be sustainable with it. So

Alan Li (25:42) Mm-hmm.

Andy Gottlieb (25:43) You know, when we opened, I made the conscious decision not to do that. Because I made the first couple thousand sandwiches with my own hands. Because I wanted to experience

Alan Li (25:53) Nice.

Andy Gottlieb (25:54) that process. I wanted to see what is there. We were busy because our neighborhood is awesome. We're on the upper west side for our first location where I live now. And our neighbors came out to support us, which is great. But we d you know, if there was a line two blocks down and I'm still trying to workshop what we're doing, and I can with each one make a great sandwich because I'm doing it myself.

It would been harder, right? It would have been a hard first impression and it sets doesn't set the tone for who and what a business is. And I think that's an important element of this as we've gone through it, is you know, you can have a viral hit and have tens of thousands of customers come in, and that could be life-changing, right? Because if you've got a decent check average, that's a ton of money you didn't see coming before that can change what you do and what you're able to be perceived as.

But they're not always sustainable customers. They're not always people gonna come back a second time. That's on you, right? Not not you, Alan. You're good. But the you know, it's that's on

Alan Li (26:48) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (26:50) the business to to to turn that one time thing into a repeat thing and into a customer who's gonna come back the next time they're in one of your neighborhoods or whatever you have. And so, you know, it's something we balance with now, obviously we're on.

them

and I think people who have this digital fluency have a leg up on some other people because they were able to have a you know, I'm working on it. But they, you know, some people have a just a natural ability to to know and use a phone and have that with capture these moments. Not even that po it doesn't have to be polished anymore, just how to convey it and how to edit it into these things. That's

Alan Li (27:31) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (27:32) a that's a incredible advantage if we know how to do it. and do it well.

Alan Li (27:35) Yeah, it makes

sense. I mean

Andy Gottlieb (27:37) But to be able to convert it's tough.

Alan Li (27:39) yeah. Yeah. With a flash in the pan it it can be fun, but ultimately if you want this for the long run, you need sustainable and you need retention and you need people coming back. So

Andy Gottlieb (27:48) It and

and a lot of people don't plan for success. So they will say, Well, it's great, it's got a t ton of people in here. How many people are you having working that day or that time to have a good experience? Right. So if you have you usually have a hundred people and you've four hundred people walking in, are those four hundred happy customers? Are those forty happy customers and three hundred and sixty people going, my god, right? And and that's a big thing.

Alan Li (28:13) Yeah. Yeah. I I always see the videos

where the restaurant owner, you know, they their video went viral and then the next day they have to post something like, Sorry, we couldn't handle it, you know, or like under that

Andy Gottlieb (28:22) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alan Li (28:24) we were prepared for this, hope you come back, this and that. I I see that all the time too. Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (28:29) Yeah, especially for restaurants,

you're you're trying to predict pred predictability is the name of the game, right? Because if you're spending too much on labor, you've got a situation. If you're spending not enough, situation, right? Or food, same thing, right? and finding that model of how do you have the freshest product possible to have the best ingredients and the best experience with being able to handle business and being able to to do it.

Alan Li (28:54) Yeah. awesome. Well, and yeah, I know we can we can go forever on, you know, finance topics for for restaurants, but I wanna dive into

Andy Gottlieb (29:01) I'll I'll go all day.

Alan Li (29:02) yeah, I wanna dive into Sandwell. tell me how the concept came together, how you found your first location, build out cost, marketing, architecture, how much you had to invest. Give give me give us all the numbers and the backstory.

Andy Gottlieb (29:19) Sure. So I I mean I'm a big fan of sandwiches from I think three years old. Might be my first food I made myself was putting something in there. And I found pretty much anything can be a sandwich if you tried hard enough. You've got the right intention. You got you you got the willpower, you can turn pretty much anything into a a sandwich or close to it. Even open faced or little fold, you know, as you go. That's exactly right.

Alan Li (29:40) Yeah. You got I mean you got sushi sandwiches, sushi burritos, I mean

yeah, it's it's a crazy.

Andy Gottlieb (29:46) people is count as a hot dog a sandwich. Everything could be a sandwich. You just gotta you gotta have the willpower and the vision to do it.

Alan Li (29:49) Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (29:52) And so it's something I found passionate with of as I go. And I'm busy. So I've always been busy I've moving around. So it's a also a natural combination of a walk and talk or in a meeting quickly or whatever it is that has lent myself to having sandwiches a countless number of times throughout my life. And I've searched for a healthy ish sandwich

So many years where I just I can't justify just a burger on a Tuesday. You know, like they're delicious and I wish I could, but it's something that, you know, I go, man, what have I done? Right? And as part of finding this balance where I just, but if I have just a super basic salad, or if I have a lettuce wrap, I'm gonna get a slice of pizza an hour later. That is how how how I'm hardwired, unfortunately.

Alan Li (30:40) Also true.

Andy Gottlieb (30:41) And so how do you have this balance for something that's

Really good, really fresh. you get a healthy ish with these quality ingredients that don't leave you feeling gross afterwards, right? And I must have been to every sandwich shop in Delhi and Bodega throughout all the tri-state area trying to find this and probably annoying all the counter guys saying, just like put some mushrooms on there. Like, you know, like h how do you it you know, some sauce, but not too much sauce, right? Channeling probably inter Larry David. And

It is something that was difficult to find. Like if this existed, I would just eat there every day. but it didn't. And as I've gone through this process, especially having background in restaurants, of trying to build something I was really passionate about and something I really cared about, as well as something that was scalable as we could do it, right? working with restaurants, it's really hard to recreate the magic of

a little restaurant that is beautiful and precious and full of soul because each business is its own personality, its own soul that takes time to develop. Recreating that somewhere else is difficult. but building looking to build something from the outset that was fun and I loved, and we could open a couple of them, was something I was I was very passionate about as as we started doing this. So I live on Upper West Side. I walked by these buildings all the time.

And

I always thought they would make a great sandwich shop. It had the good the makings of what I was looking for. which is an original building, you know, where it was a lot of original details within the store, on the exterior. It was an open space, it was wide enough for the counter. And it just felt like it was on the right block where it's got other retail stuff on it, but it's not store, store, store, store, store, store, store that feels crowded to the eye and to the experience where it feels like you're walking to an outdoor.

mall mall food court walking down some of these blocks that have tiny stores just lining one after the other going through it. so yeah so that that that's is something that is percolating going through there and you know as we've gone through this it sort of started to evolve where everything it was started complementing in my mind of w how it would flow together. Right? So this

Combination of the concept, the space would need to support that concept. it's electrical only, so that how do you do the the space to to have that be beneficial both for operations and the environment? And it's good to create the best possible sandwich with that level of equal toasting within that, you know, the branding and these different elements of it that all kind of coalesce as those.

Going through it over the space of maybe a year in conversations with friends and family.

Alan Li (33:41) Mm-hmm.

Andy Gottlieb (33:42) so it went from just wouldn't this be fun, making a ton of sandwiches to really a fully fleshed, scalable concept that we went through it. and so that's really this again, this vision where it's not it's meant to be inclusive, not exclusive of of of healthy-ish, right? where it is.

Really

just natural ingredients. It is things made cleanly, made well. If you need a PhD to understand ingredient, we don't like to use it. You know, if if it's got twenty seven letters inside of it, it's probably a tough one to to sell. you know, and we don't have beef or pork or or cream or butter or anything fried, again, with a sense of that is lean towards what can we have every day.

Right. This this what do I want to eat every day and and feel great about eating daily rather than a special occasion thing or a s or a you know, I always think of some places where it's an incredible hero that's the size of a football, but I get that every once in a while it's put it with a couple people because that's all you can do with that. versus a community based business where people can come

All the time and we get to know each other because you can feel good eating it regularly and it's there. and

Alan Li (35:05) Yeah. And and for

for the space that you guys found, you know, how how big is the space roughly? How much was the build out cost? you know, how how long did it take to even get open?

Andy Gottlieb (35:16) So

it's about a thousand feet, a little less. and it was, you know, the things you know, I I like to think if you get eighty five percent right during a build out, you do a pretty good job. Because if you're not if you're so worried about the other fifteen percent that you're not willing to make a decision and take risks, then you're gonna end up with a pretty vanilla experience. If you're not looking for something exciting and different, and uniquely yourself.

And so during the build out process, I think I learned a lot what was important. Right. our second store looks similar but different to the other one, because it was a lot of lessons learned of what's really important core to our value or not. Right? It's important to me to offer an affordable sandwich. So that, you know, in this day and age it's pretty hard with gas prices quadrupling the price of tomatoes. But it is something that is

core to who to who I am and who the stores to be able to offer as affordable sandwich as possible so that we can do so. And if you spend a fortune on a build out, you're gonna either anger your customers or your investors. You're not gonna find it you know, s someone's not gonna be happy with you as you go through that process 'cause there's gotta be an o alignment of that. so it's finding ways to use existing elements, right?

What do you have to put in to make the concept work? Like we have our ovens that are toaster ovens, and how that line works is core to what we do. So that we have to make nice and we have to buy the right things to do it. you know, other elements we we'll figure out is that beautiful mosaic floor great? I love it. If I'm don't if I don't need to replace a floor, I'm not going to, and the front of the store, and I like the natural wood store of our wood floor of our second store because and it also feels organic.

Right. and so that's was really the process, the feeling out process of what is essential and as we grow, what is what is not, and and all the things we get there. but that was really the first process it took

Five months to open? Four yeah. And yeah, a month that was training and systems. Again, because it was our first store, it's like, okay, I have a recipe, but how do you make it in this kitchen? How do you make it scale with this mixer, right? Not the little mixer I was using one of other restaurants, right? How do you do these

Alan Li (37:44) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (37:44) things that make it who it is? you know, for our second store where you opened it, it took us month and a half, two months, and about a third

Alan Li (37:54) To open.

Andy Gottlieb (37:55) but to open about a third of the price and we knew that we had we've worked with these obvious before, we've worked with the systems before.

Alan Li (38:01) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (38:02) You know, we did a week of training in our first store, we did a week of training in the second store. We're open. And it's these things that are that are able to really translate with that as we go. You

Alan Li (38:13) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (38:13) know

Alan Li (38:13) And the the first store what w what was the cost? Was it like low six figures, mid six figures, high?

Andy Gottlieb (38:20) it was about mid six figures.

Alan Li (38:21) Okay.

Andy Gottlieb (38:22) and it was figuring out, yeah, that that same process of what equipment we're getting and electrical upgrades to to make sure we have all the right things and and stuff like that. Yeah.

Alan Li (38:31) Got it. Got it.

Andy Gottlieb (38:33) it since graduated to low six figures, which I'm happy about. included which but i is a lot easier to expand and grow with it is to do low six figures, and that really includes everything.

Right includes rent, security deposit, training, inventory, all of that. which again makes us feel good about grow offering affordable sandwiches and doing these things because we're not walking in and having to recoup a million dollar expense overnight.

Alan Li (39:02) Yeah. And did you have to take on investors or was this funded out of pocket?

Andy Gottlieb (39:07) both. it's something that I am lucky to have the friends and family and people except network that I do of people I go to for advice anyways, right? So people I've talked to about this and asking their counsel and saying, Hey, I'm thinking about this. What do you think? Right? And it was a a pretty fortunate process, at least for me, a lot of it came up organically and

in the process of talking to people and getting their feedback on what we were doing and and helping to fine-tune the concept, a lot of people came along the way into the partnership group as as a natural evolution through that. I've funded a lot of it. but it's also fun doing it together. and having that be journey where everyone on our team who who is an investor is someone I call often enough and we'll talk and go through this and say, Hey, I've got this thing going on. How what do you think about this, right? Like

you you y you're an incredible expert in this field. I have this application, you know, of a this this thought about how I want to expand this program for my employees or how I want to do this element. And it's something that is really great to be able to talk to people about what they're doing in their lives as they found success and learn from that. and that's really been the positive version as we've gone through it is up to this point having be a really great network of both.

So it's you know, everyone's gonna

Alan Li (40:35) Nice.

Andy Gottlieb (40:35) everyone's aligned to to help this go well.

Alan Li (40:38) Yeah.

That's great. And y you guys opened the first location in twenty twenty three, is that correct?

Andy Gottlieb (40:45) That's

right, yeah.

Alan Li (40:46) Okay. So tell us a little bit about how it's been doing. How was it the first few months and then how is it doing currently?

Andy Gottlieb (40:54) So this is when I first said restaurant owners have to have the conversation of from a CFO perspective, what do you have to do? Right? How do you have to sustain it? How do you have to keep open if this is what you're doing on nights? It when we first opened, it was right there. And so I was glad I did that math to figure out what we needed to do, and if it was me there instead of other managers, how do we help make this keep this going while

We are building out the brand and building out the name recognition and getting a game plan of what we do. so it started off slower and we made some successes, we had some mistakes, you know. and it for the first about year it it did that. And it's something that I'm very grateful that I that I before I opened the doors and started this process.

figured out what those numbers were to make it make sure it was sustainable. So that if we did this, we're there. If we were dipping below it, how do we do everything within our power to make it busy enough to get there? So we're still okay while we're waiting for the next thing, right? And so

Alan Li (42:05) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (42:05) making the conscious decision to not open with hype and going viral meant we had to build organically, day by day and sandwich by sandwich. and after about the first year

it started really catching on. we revamped the key, really started when we we used to have breakfast and it was awesome, but it really distracted from what we did. So

Alan Li (42:30) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (42:30) it meant we were had two different lineups, we had a food, we had we had cross utilities of ingredients, but it was not really the efficient thing. It complex. And

Alan Li (42:40) Complex. Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (42:43) we need to make it more simple and we needed to really offer the same thing.

For the same amount of hours, but opening to dinner and have that be doubling down on what we do great rather than trying to be everything to everyone. We still have some people come in to get super mad at us for not having breakfast. I'm like sorry. I I I too wish I could eat this, but it was important for us to really focus on being great at a couple things rather than pretty good at a lot of them.

Alan Li (43:14) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (43:15) you know.

Alan Li (43:16) Makes sense.

Andy Gottlieb (43:17) you know, we used to make a whole ton bunch of different kinds of bread. We make one kind of bread in-house now and we crush it. right? So we're not worried about how much do we have this one or that one. We have fresh bread just pouring out of the oven all day. It's the same kind of subroll and it's just fantastic. Rather than trying to balance some kind of inventory system or whatever it might be of the different breads we have there.

Alan Li (43:42) Yeah. how many sandwiches would you be selling on an average day or week now?

Andy Gottlieb (43:50) Five, six hundred a day now, usually.

Alan Li (43:52) Wow.

Andy Gottlieb (43:54) at each store. It's it's it's depends on the day, right? So some days but that's about average with catering and the things we do. you know, because

Alan Li (44:04) And what was it when you first started Pur Store?

Andy Gottlieb (44:10) you know, a hundred whatever whatever it is, hundred, like

Alan Li (44:11) Wow.

Andy Gottlieb (44:12) like it was it it inched up and again there was days when it was great and days when wasn't, as we first started

process as we were really trying to you know, we got such great feedback from customers, but how do we share that with people? How do we tell people the what's going on? So it was you know, 'cause on any given day we try to have a complementary overlap. So, you know, we do a ton of catering for offices and

private events throughout. So usually they're on different days than being super busy in the store. So it helps us have the same staffing and smoothness to it because we're able to, you know, on the days we're catering for a whole office building in Midtown, we just have a normal normal Wednesday and it's great. And it's a good balance

Alan Li (44:57) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (44:57) of all things.

Alan Li (44:58) Yeah. how are you getting these corporate accounts? Cause I know these can be like great for for small businesses, especially for people who are doing like sandwiches or things that are easily caterable. Like

how

Andy Gottlieb (45:12) Mm-hmm.

Alan Li (45:12) how do people even break into that that space?

Andy Gottlieb (45:16) There's a couple different ways we do it. there is the most the the biggest answer is being who we are day in, day out for three years. So that way that has been when we deliver to someone for their regular experience or we deliver to their office a great experience then the second time, then the third time,

Alan Li (45:40) Mm-hmm.

Andy Gottlieb (45:40) people begin to trust us to then feed their whole team. Right.

And so that's that was really it just started to snowball after a while because of that learned experience and trust that we you know, if we crushed it for the first fifteen meals they had that we they could trust us with to be the person said, Let's do this and not have it be a situation. like like like I think we've all experienced at office lunches before.

Alan Li (46:03) Yeah. So

does does it actually just start at the individual of like, hey, I'm like, you know, Alan at X firm and I'm like, I I love sandwell sandwiches and then like, you know, the assistant's like, Hey, we need a catering, like what sandwiches do you guys like? And it's like, I like sandwell, like we should do it for this. Is that is that how it works, like pretty organically?

Andy Gottlieb (46:21) That

that is how it that is how it started.

Alan Li (46:25) Okay.

Andy Gottlieb (46:25) And from there we then do a decent amount of digital marketing and you know, online optimization so so that we can be the answer whether you search with Google or Yelp or Chat GPT, where you can get some good sandwiches for catering, we try to be up there.

Alan Li (46:46) Yeah. And are you doing

that yourself or using an outsourced SEO ASO agency to help with that?

Andy Gottlieb (46:54) We do ourselves. this

Alan Li (46:56) okay.

Andy Gottlieb (46:57) is the whole whole whole different path from going down and a rabbit hole of how much I I embrace and enjoy working with Claude to help us do these things and to help us really be successful on these fronts to to optimize these things. but it's

Alan Li (47:13) You know, I

I I've the this is I I've recently started asking people if if they incorporate AI into their workflows for the past, you know, four or five guests, and everyone has is is adopting it, which is so cool because you you wouldn't expect physical location businesses to necessarily be at the forefront of, you know, AI, but it's like these are AI is so good for small businesses and so

good for

Andy Gottlieb (47:39) I think

Alan Li (47:39) physical businesses too.

Andy Gottlieb (47:41) I think it's something that doesn't get talked about enough on this element. I think there's a lot of talk about how there's an impact of AI on service and service work and these different elements that that it that

Alan Li (47:54) Law, software development, yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (47:56) it that it has a negative contributory element to the team or whatever it might be, and there's some real conversations and concerns about that that are out there.

For this, like I'm not replacing our pr our team making sandwiches with with an AI agent. But what we are able to do is do things faster and more efficiently than we could have done before. And to attack a level of expertise I don't have. Right. So that so I don't I can Google things, I can figure things out, but I'm not an overnight you know, GEO expert, right, going through this stuff. But to be able to tap somebody that's

they're not gonna be as good as perhaps a broader firm, but it enough to help us get there is incredibly efficient for our small resources. I think that's actually makes more sense in my mind of the sense of retail businesses need to find every edge they can, right? Because they're their businesses focused on physical margin, not just service margin, right? And in doing so, how can you a couple points here and there is the the world of difference.

Alan Li (49:05) Yeah, totally.

Andy Gottlieb (49:05) That's how you go from

good to good to great to excellent. And

Alan Li (49:08) Totally.

Andy Gottlieb (49:08) so if you're able, you know, so we as we go through it, we've got a we know we call it our whole sandwise division of AI agents going through. but

Alan Li (49:17) wow. That's a fun name. Sandwise. That's great.

Andy Gottlieb (49:21) my brother is a AI sales tech expert and consultant with this stuff. And he's also he's also a partner with us, and so you know, we'll talk, we'll we'll generally have a

same wise meeting in our in our overall catch ups of going through how to do this so that we have you know a pretty strong AI agentic team helping us on a variety of different ways to help again support our team and and support my efforts as a sp as a business owner to to do that and reinvest into you know the day-to-day operations and and do that and stuff.

Alan Li (50:00) Yeah. So how how are you guys getting yourselves to show up as the best sandwich for Chat GPT or Claude in the search?

Andy Gottlieb (50:09) you know, it's a combination of where we are found online, it's how we're presenting ourselves on our website. It is again the day things we do well, it's you can't create other people's reactions and impressions of writing about you unless you do a good job. Unless you serve a great sandwich, right? So some of the things we're doing but making sure that we are, you know.

presenting in the right way online that is not just stuffing a million keywords into a page and saying, Hi, we sell sandwiches, seven thousand words about food, sincerely. Sandwell. You know, like like there is a bit more of a balance to it, to be able to pr you know we have a crack code completely, right?

But we're trying the best we can to to do that and to again be findable so that someone who's looking to cater for their office is able to find us, right? so that we can create these opportunities to get to know people and and and to form that connection, right? 'Cause again it all comes back to hospitality for us and how do we use AI to help us be better at that? How do we use it to create these these opportunities to connect with people? 'Cause we still gotta serve them lunch and I want I want to be an awesome lunch as they go through it.

Alan Li (51:29) Yes.

Andy Gottlieb (51:30) And that's kind of that basis rather than AI for AI sake, it's AI's for service sake and how we're able to translate that into the into the the physical world. You know, I think that there's again broader broader conversation, but I think that there is a bit of a recon and comedy of people having a bifurcation of what industries are out there and having either be tangible elements and real world impact or these big firms.

And I think the more we can embrace being excellent at touching people's lives on a day to day basis in a in a real human way. again a visceral way of having a great, great meal, great experience,

Alan Li (52:12) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (52:13) the better.

Alan Li (52:14) Yeah. And you guys also do some pretty interesting and and unique marketing, you know,

tactics.

Andy Gottlieb (52:20) Yeah.

Alan Li (52:20) Like with you like you have the flip for fifty percent off the sandwich, is that right?

Andy Gottlieb (52:26) That's right. That's right.

Alan Li (52:27) Can you describe that quickly, how how that works and like how you how you thought of the idea and did you engineer it to to go viral or like, you know, t tell tell us

Andy Gottlieb (52:32) Yeah. It

Alan Li (52:36) tell us the thoughts.

Andy Gottlieb (52:37) it's something that is it came from a couple different places. to start with, we were looking for a way to really c connect more with customers. We're really busy. We are busy. I would love to stop and chat with everybody, but during the lunch rush on any given day, I can't, right? We're just we're we're making sandwiches and I and I, you know, in the New York way, I'd rather I feel like most people would appreciate.

me not stopping and chatting and instead making the same as quickly as possible for them and a couple hundred people, right? And going through it. But I I love hanging out. I love talking. I love chopping it up with customers. I love having this dynamic and dialogue that we just, you know, we have time to do in the middle of the day. We get busy for dinner, we're busy for lunch, but in the middle of the day we're just we have time. And we have our team on staff and we we want to get to know our customers on a physical basis. So it started with that premise of we want to have a happy hour.

That's in the middle of the day that encourages people to come into the store, not order online, not do the other things. Greg, I love

Alan Li (53:37) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (53:37) online ordering. We have our own program, we have a whole aspect of that to help it be efficient. But we want to get a chance to really hang out with it with our community in doing so. And then on the other side of this, the idea for the for the coin flip and the flip for 50. My again, my brother went to school in New Orleans and

He gotta drive as a bartard at 18 because there's no rules in New Orleans. And they gave him like

Alan Li (54:05) True.

Andy Gottlieb (54:06) the the Friday at like 11 a.m. shift. And one person was like asleep in the bar and he said, Can I run a promotion? I said, Sure, but whatever you want to do, if you get people in here, we're good. And he did this. And the owner walked in the

next Friday and it was packed full of kids. And the guy was like, What is happening here?

But I did flip for a flip for Fridays. What are you talking about? And it's something always stuck with me. One, because I like visiting and and flip for Fridays. I thought that was fun. But two, it was fun. It just people come in, you hang out, you

Alan Li (54:41) It is fun.

Andy Gottlieb (54:41) win, which here, we lose, we'll get up next time, right? And you go through it, sometimes had a bad day. I think I saw tails. We're good. You know, and it's an opportunity to really

connect it and and again just like be excited and and have something that's fun to do generally for our staff generally for the customers right and if someone comes in there's no one in the world I'd rather give what's effectively a 25% discount right like half half of half

Alan Li (55:10) Mm-hmm.

Andy Gottlieb (55:11) we give that to DoorDash you know and and and I I don't let them so this is something that the that this is I'd rather nothing that would I'd rather do than to our own customers and offer that to them have

just a fun, fun experience that naturally has gone a little viral and it's and it's been engaging and people like to do it and film it and all the things with it. But it starts with the the idea of just wanting to have fun and get to know our team our community and yeah, flip for it and cheer.

Alan Li (55:41) That's cool.

I like it. I like it. what's I I know you have your second location open as well. what what is the plan for Sandwell over the next few years? Are you are you hoping to open more locations in Manhattan, New York, tri state area, beyond? Are you looking to franchise corporate owned? You know, well, what are what are you thinking?

Andy Gottlieb (56:03) We're

definitely looking to to grow as as we go through this, you know. I like serving sandwiches. It's been a really awesome experience and it's been incredibly rewarding of the of how much people have connected with this. Right. It's really been just such a awesome thing. You you can have all the plans you want until you open the doors and serve people, you don't know what's gonna happen next, right? and how it's gonna be received and going through it. And so we're looking to grow, you know, we're looking to grow sustainably again.

So that we can be a part of this for a long time. rather than having two stores, you know, going from two to two hundred. That's too fast. right, so starting in the city for now. I love the New York area, I love the New York region as we go through it. both in towns and and surrounding boroughs and going and going through this process and then seeing where where we can grow. You know, our our goal is definitely to to grow brick by brick.

and store by store over the next few years. you know, roughly double as we as we per year as as we are able to do that. you know, but again, make sure we're able to do it in a way that feels good. it doesn't feel like what just happened here, you know. and so that's really where I put a lot of time and and thought and focus into is how do we build the right systems, how do we build the right ways to set our team up for success.

you I've always viewed opening more restaurants as a way to offer more opportunities to our team. so, you know, I I I think about it that if I'm hiring a manager, I'm probably failing my own team and not promoting someone. If I didn't

Alan Li (57:41) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (57:42) hadn't have someone ready to who's able to do that yet. So it's really focusing on that and focusing on their growth and focusing on creating an environment where people can grow within what we do so that we can again grow sustainably and grow well and have

That same experience, you know. I think a lot of places open and again they forget about that pie chart of what's what's important to go in a restaurant, they might have a great product, they might have systems, but if you're just trying to drop in culture, it's tough. and not do that as part of what you do. Yeah.

Alan Li (58:18) Yeah. And in

in the first couple of months you were making the sandwiches yourself. You said you made a thousand yourself. What are you doing now? How how are you spending your time today?

Andy Gottlieb (58:27) So it's a good mix. When we have really busy days, I like to be there and help coaching through. you know, I like to be around them a lot. Again, I like all our menu is my fifteen ish favorite sandwiches in the world. so I like to be around it and I like to be a part of it on a day to day basis. so I really view my job as to set our team up for success. Is to how do I help

them feel empowered to do it because I can't and shouldn't be in two places at once. Right. So as we're looking to grow, if I'm on the line making sandwiches, you know, it's small business. Things happen. And I I'm happy to do it and it's my it's it's still my escape into life. Right. So now whatever else going on, it's almost like, three people called out. no, I have to go make sandwiches for four hours. And it's like my most peaceful time

amidst the chaos and the food, it's still like my my zen time of going through it. but I'm really focused on trying to again find some new locations in the city, find the right vendor partners, find the right kind of framework of what we're doing so that again as we grow and and take those next steps, they're done they're done with intention and they're done well to grow and feel good about it.

You know, when we first opened our second we opened the second store, we got to a certain point, I was like, hold on. I thought this was supposed to be harder. I've opened all these restaurants and they've all been so hard, each one.

Alan Li (1:00:09) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (1:00:09) And you know, of course it took me forty years to get there. But it's this sense of each restaurant has its own soul, right? And you start off with this kernel of an idea, then it grows.

Right over time the staff contributes to it, you have to nurture it and contribute to it, and it develops into something and sometimes is what you thought it might be, sometimes it's different, and that's interesting and and okay. but it's hard because you have to focus so much on it. I focus so much on the store saying well now through this process that creating a second one I just had I had the colours picked out, I had the tile picked out, I had the systems picked out. I was like, man, I should have been opening these same restaurant over and over again for years.

Alan Li (1:00:52) Yeah. Well that's probably

Andy Gottlieb (1:00:53) so it ha

so it's making it now can that feeling was good and trying to make it again. How am I able to set up systems now so that when you open the next one I feel that same way even more so of man, that was opening restaurants should be hard. That was a that was pretty easy. Good.

Alan Li (1:01:14) That's that's the first time I've heard that. So that's good no that's really good. If if it that's f if it's feeling that

Andy Gottlieb (1:01:17) I was shocked.

Alan Li (1:01:19) way, that that means you stop you you have some great systems and processes in place.

Andy Gottlieb (1:01:24) It was it was the unexpected version of that, I'll tell you. I'm used to

Alan Li (1:01:27) That's great.

Andy Gottlieb (1:01:27) the I'm used to the blood, sweat, and tears. And wasn't easy, but it was definitely not the same as recreating everything from scratch. And that was such a big lesson in the moment of here's what you do. you know, friends who have done this before who have restaurants and expanded them, you know, left one. You think one's the hardest. Two is often harder because you have to make sure you

are out of the restaurant. You have to make sure you are teaching people these things and focusing your culture. But once you do that, which that was the hardest thing for me, was not the building the store, but was the taking me out of it and doing so it ended up being a a pretty good process.

Alan Li (1:02:14) and yeah, no we're wrapping up on time here, but I wanted to ask you, you know, looking back over the last three years of starting Sandwell and with the knowledge that you have now, is there anything you would have changed if you can go back in time?

Andy Gottlieb (1:02:28) Ooh,

that's a good question. You know

Sometimes as you go through this, as I've gone through this process, it is. I think about that of like, man, what if I'd done this? Right? I could have saved myself so much money. I could have saved myself so much this. I could have connected with that person, whatever it might be. But it is all so I'm not saying there's not there's nothing I would have done differently, because that would be a lie. But it is.

has been such a it's hard to separate what growth has come through conflict or not. Right? What what innovation has come through necessity of being like, well, we have to do this for payroll. I need to do this. How are we gonna get there? And that creates this element to to grow, right? That creates this this aspect of it. And I think that, you know, there are times when we first opened where I had these

Wildly complex specials and our staff is like, what are you doing? This is here, right? And

Alan Li (1:03:40) Yeah.

Andy Gottlieb (1:03:42) it was something that I learned a lot from to be simple and do these processes, right? And so there were some of these expensive mistakes, some of them were not so, you know. but I think that's I've tried to learn from them all and really embrace that and find that silver lining through it.

you know, especially 'cause I I try to look forward and and learn but but how to act next rather than agonizing over what's happened or not. You know? I think part of it was thinking more every time that I thought about what I felt like I really should do what what I really thought was best for it rather than what I should do. It's always worked out well. And every time I've been like, but I guess I should do this, pretty universally it's gone wrong.

Alan Li (1:04:33) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (1:04:35) of of that of the sense of well all businesses do this we should do that and every business is unique in its own small way so I think finding that right fit and the identity of self and staying aligned to that every step of the way that's been the biggest lesson for me has been almost every time that I'm like but this once I'm just gonna do it these I'm just gonna do it

I know it's not what we do, I'm gonna do it like this anyways. It's backfired every time I face. Sometimes spectacularly.

Alan Li (1:05:08) Mm.

Andy Gottlieb (1:05:10) And instead of being confident enough to take those leaps and sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, but it always will feel it always felt more naturally authentic to and better set up for success long term when I was able to do that. If that makes sense.

Alan Li (1:05:28) Yeah. Sage advice to be yourself. Don't don't do things just

Andy Gottlieb (1:05:31) Ha ha

Alan Li (1:05:32) for the sake of doing them or because that's the way it should be done. I I I totally agree with that.

Andy Gottlieb (1:05:36) Well, and there's there's a lot of bo

there's a lot of boring restaurants out there. You know, there's a lot of th

Alan Li (1:05:40) Yeah, it is. There.

Andy Gottlieb (1:05:41) there's there's a lot of places that don't stand for anything. There's a lot of places that again, we're I try to be positive all the time. So it's like they can do whatever they want, but we have to stand for something. We have we can't be boring, right, as we go through it. And I think that that yeah, try not to fall into that trap and just to be interesting and maybe a little weird and have some fun and that's I don't know. I wouldn't have that any other way.

Alan Li (1:06:04) There you go. Annie, this is awesome. if people want to follow along or get in touch, what's the best way for them to do so?

Andy Gottlieb (1:06:13) follow us at at get Sanwell or visit us online at get samwell dot com. Yeah.

Alan Li (1:06:18) All right.

Well, thanks, Andy. excited to try more of your sandwiches and yeah, thanks again for an awesome time.

Andy Gottlieb (1:06:26) Thanks, Alan. Absolute pleasure.