Building WTHN, a Modern Acupuncture Clinic with Michelle Larivee

Alan Li (00:01) Today's guest is Michelle Larravy, who is the co-founder and CEO of Within, an acupuncture clinic with multiple locations throughout New York, that also sells functional wellness products rooted in Eastern medicine. Michelle previously spent over a decade in Binance and Consulting before starting within, ⁓ right after a devastating ski accident, which left her with some chronic pain. But Michelle, we're really excited to have you on the podcast.

Michelle (00:27) Thanks Alan. Thrilled to be here.

Alan Li (00:30) Well, I'm really excited to dive into what you're building out within. But ⁓ I'd love to also briefly touch on ⁓ you know, what you were doing before. So tell us a bit about ⁓ your time at Merrill Lynch, IFC, Deloitte, what you learned and ⁓ you know, how hard it was to leave that pretty steady and promising career to ⁓ dive into entrepreneurship.

Michelle (00:50) sure. Prior to starting within, I had worked, as you mentioned, in the ⁓ investment banking, finance and consulting space. I'd actually mostly focused on healthcare and have worked across the industry with hospitals and academic medical centers, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, and have always felt really passionately about there being an opportunity, lots of opportunities actually within the healthcare space because as I'm sure

anyone listening to this knows our system is very broken ⁓ and has been for many many years and so you know from a bunch of different angles I was able to help you know solve some different problems or think outside of the box and so I think that kind of set a really nice foundation for within from a professional perspective because I was able to see you know some of the trends I think are really underpinning what we're doing it within today. So you know first and foremost this

Alan Li (01:48) Yeah.

Michelle (01:50) kind of the rise of the empowered consumer, ⁓ a trend towards natural medicine, the opioid crisis, desigmatization of mental health, destigmatization of women's health, the need for preventative care and solutions for longevity, and you know, kind of how all of those intersect with rising healthcare costs, ⁓ a system that's failing chronic pain and other types of chronic illnesses. ⁓

So so you know, kind of all of that just really set a nice foundation for what we're doing at within. But as you mentioned, it was my inspiration for starting within was more from my own personal health journey and transformation through acupuncture and Chinese medicine more broadly.

Alan Li (02:22) Mm.

Yeah. And it seems like ⁓ even even now there's a TikTok trend of feeling in a I'm in a very Chinese time of my life and people starting to drink warm water and being like open to eastern medicine.

Michelle (02:45) Yeah, yeah, no, a hundred percent. There's definitely an awareness, which is great in terms of what is acupuncture, what is Chinese medicine, what are some of the different practices. ⁓ and not even just TikTok, but actually in the last ten days, ⁓ New York Times, National Geographic, and The Economists all publish articles that reference newer studies about the actual science behind the medicine, which is really important because it helps explain in today's

consumer and you know patient terms of what we've known for thousands of years as practitioners, but it explains not just that it works, but how the medicine works.

Alan Li (03:26) Yeah. so you were studying or you were investing in the healthcare space ⁓ and had your accident, but ⁓ were you always thinking about being an entrepreneur? Was that the plan or was it because of the accident and you're like, wow, this is really effective. I need to get the word out.

Michelle (03:44) A little bit.

Both. ⁓ so my both my dad and my grandpa and my stepmom were all entrepreneurs, so I kind of grew up with that spirit and had, you know, kind of toyed with some different ideas and had, you know, varying degrees of progress and success with those over time. but for me it was really this specific idea and the catalyst of my own personal health journey. And I just felt super passionately about it that it was

worth leaving my career ⁓ and really pursuing it.

Alan Li (04:21) Yeah. ⁓ so was acupuncture the first thing that you had tried, or was it, you know, after trying the traditional sources?

Michelle (04:28) Probably the last thing I tried actually.

⁓ in term you're talking about in terms of just kind of healing from the accident. Yes.

Alan Li (04:34) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I I think

I read that you were initially skeptical ⁓ of maybe the practice and it was one of the the last things that you tried, but then it became one of the most effective.

Michelle (04:45) Yeah, I wouldn't say that I was skeptical. I would just say that I was unaware of acupuncture as a modality. but by the time I I actually came to try acupuncture, I was open minded to honestly trying anything and had tried pretty much everything at that point. ⁓ both Eastern and Western types of practices. but what was, you know, really great about acupuncture is that I was able to stop taking painkillers and muscle relaxers pretty quickly. ⁓ and then

Alan Li (04:49) Mm.

Michelle (05:12) you know, the pain resolved. But w I think what became really interesting was that

call it side benefits, but as I was going regularly to to work on the pain, I realized wow, I'm also sleeping better, I'm less stressed, I'm getting sick less often. ⁓ it wasn't just about acupuncture. I was taking herbs and trying cupping and gua sha and ⁓ different parts of Chinese medicine and and really adopting some of those that you mentioned drinking warm water. ⁓ so different different aspects of the practice and realized it was actually impacting my whole health overall.

more holistically and preventatively and that felt really empowering.

Alan Li (05:50) Mm.

Okay.

And ⁓ you know, you started going through these practices and adopting these modalities. ⁓ when did it become okay, I actually need to start this business and give give us the timeline.

Michelle (06:05) Yeah.

Yeah, totally. ⁓ I would say it was several years into my journey. ⁓ because what had happened was while the results were amazing for myself personally and you know, I'd say one of the other areas of health that the medicine really helped me with was fertility. ⁓ and so kind of fast forward

Couple years after my ski accident, I actually had some fertility challenges, but through acupuncture and herbs, I was able to successfully get pregnant. so again, like a hugely life-changing experience that was a direct result of medicine. but you know, my own personal experience started to become frustrating. It was challenging to get an appointment, ⁓ it was expensive, but you know, a number of kind of different barriers, and then you know, I also because I

been doing acupuncture and Chinese medicine for several years at this point I had learned about all the different benefits that I had no idea about, you know, whether that was migraine prevention or ⁓

Of PCOS or you know, allergy relief, and ⁓ then started recommending to many different friends and colleagues and family members to you know take these herbs, try acupuncture, do cupping. and what I realized is that there was a lot of interest, ⁓ and everyone was very

To the suggestion, but then it wasn't easy for people to get started. ⁓ how do I know where to go? Not easy to get an appointment, it's expensive. So, you know, kind of similar frustrations that I had. And so that I think was kind of also part of what made me realize that there was a r a really big market and opportunity and a need ⁓ for these types of solutions, but doing it in such a way that it was really accessible. And so that's that's kind of

How I like to describe what we do it within is accessibility in every sense of the word.

Alan Li (08:00) Hmm. Okay. ⁓ so when did you actually, you know, put down the groundwork to start building out within? And I I think you also raised some venture funding. So how did you decide between raising venture funding or, you know, bootstrapping the business?

Michelle (08:10) Yeah.

Yeah, well, it was a pretty obvious answer in terms of requiring funding because we're doing, you know, ground floor build outs in Manhattan that, you know, cost close to a million dollars plus other startup costs and things like that. So it required funding from the beginning. I would say, you know, what was important was to find

either angels or institutional investors that really understood ⁓ you know what we're doing. We're doing something that people haven't tried before in terms of, you know, creating a new category, mainstream category in the wellness space. ⁓ you know, taking an ancient practice that was, you know, really not well understood, you know, at a widespread level. ⁓ And then also, you know, I was very aware that, you know, I came from a finance and consulting background, so I was also looking

For investors and advisors that had built brick and mortar businesses, that had also built brands, because you know, we're not inventing the medicine, but everything comes down to kind of hospitality and the experience and the branding. And so really was looking to have partners, you know, like the founders of SoulCycle and Heyday and Sweet Green that had done that before and could really help, you know, not just at a strategic level but also tactically with things like sourcing real estate, negotiating leases, things like that.

Alan Li (09:37) Yeah.

Michelle (09:38) Like that.

Alan Li (09:38) Yeah. Well well I let's dive into it. I mean, how did you do the ⁓ you know, the fundraising process? How did you meet, you know, the founders of SoulCycle or, you know, Heyday and ⁓ how was that process?

Michelle (09:48) Yeah.

Totally. ⁓ I mean it's it was you know, I would say from the fundraising that was like the one thing that I had done from my background as it relates to this business. So in terms of ⁓ you know, building out a clear business plan and a model and a deck and all

you know, that was something that I was really comfortable with and able to do fluidly. And then in terms of kind of trying to meet the right investors and things like that, there's a number of different strategies. I mean, of course, just like really networking and getting the word out there, but also trying to really attend either panels or conferences that people were speaking at and I could try to ⁓ you know, connect with them afterwards. and then, you know, you kind of find that once you get a couple people on board and

Alan Li (10:30) Mm.

Michelle (10:39) behind you that they're you know excited and willing to make introductions and it you know at the end of the day it's a relatively small industry and network and so it it becomes easier to meet you know people that you think would be a really good fit once you've kind of got your foot in the door.

Alan Li (10:56) Yeah.

So so how long was the fundraising process and how much was the initial round?

Michelle (10:58) Yeah. ⁓

the fundraising process was, you know, probably around six months, four to six months. you know, to to fully close the round. I think we raised around two and a half million in the first seed and friends and family round. and that was, you know, to establish the brand, build out the first space, really get a proof of concept. ⁓ and then also to launch just a a limited set of our

Alan Li (11:29) Mm. And this is in twenty eighteen?

Michelle (11:31) Yeah, twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. Yep.

Alan Li (11:34) Okay.

⁓ okay, great. So you raise a couple million dollars over the course of four, six months, ⁓ start establishing the brand. ⁓ was the first step to do the herbs and the sort of e commerce or you know, retail products, or was it to build out the space? Okay.

Michelle (11:38) Yeah.

Definitely to build out the space and that's like

still our core focus. ⁓ however, you know, for anyone that's not familiar with how traditional Chinese medicine works, it's really a multimodality approach and what we're really what we really care about is getting the best results possible for our clients and the way to do that is by combining acupuncture, herbal therapy, other modalities.

Such as nutrition, cupping, things like that. And so, you know, for us, we were really clear in terms of the standards that we were trying to bring to the industry and you know, the power of the herbs. And so if you start with kind of like, how are we gonna make sure that we're getting our clients the best results? It was important for us to have herbs, but that also lived up to our quality standards. And so we created organic herbal formulas that undergo rigorous testing, which you know is harder to find. ⁓ and so

You know, we started with a limited subset that we've since expanded, but that's really, you know, ancillary to the core being the studios.

Alan Li (12:50) Gotcha.

So how long did the initial ⁓ how long did it take you to find the initial space? And tell us about, you know, the build out time. I know you mentioned that is around a million dollars to even open up the space. ⁓

Michelle (12:59) Yeah.

Yeah.

totally. So our first I think the first space and then I I guess every subsequent space you get a little bit faster and better and you're

And things like that, but so the first space took longer. We, you know, had a head start and were already looking at spaces in parallel to fundraising because we wanted to be able to essentially raise and like press play on a lease. and we did do like a rolling close, which enabled us to, you know, start funding like some lease negotiations and some brand work and things like that. ⁓ so it probably took us

six to nine months to actually find the right space. But again, that was it probably could have gone faster, but it was in parallel to fundraising. And so, you know and and with any kind of first space, we we looked at the whole city and were like constantly walking the different neighborhoods just to make sure we had an understanding. I think we came to the realization pretty quickly that it was important for us to be in flat iron for the first location. ⁓ you know, but we did spend time kind of studying the market and trying to understand different neighborhoods and

Alan Li (13:43) In parallel.

Right in the center.

Michelle (14:09) Things like that.

Alan Li (14:10) Yeah. no, that's great. And then ⁓ you know, for the like, you know, the design and then also the build out, ⁓ did you hire external people to help with that process and

Michelle (14:24) Definitely, definitely. Do not have like any kind of ⁓ G C background or architect and design background. ⁓ but yeah, we ⁓ you know, have been really fortunate that the partners that we've found have been really incredible, both from a real estate and from a design and and contractor perspective and they've followed, you know, us throughout all of our future locations. but I do think, you know, finding

the right fit in terms of real estate who understands your business, who can help you really understand your needs, who can, you know, help you negotiate a really strong deal. Like that's kind of everything in the brick and mortar space because that's what drives, you know, largely drives the economics because rent in New York is so expensive. ⁓ so it was important to me to find really strong partners. So our real estate partner is ⁓ Taryn Brandis and Brand Urban. ⁓ and she's worked with a bunch

Alan Li (15:12) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (15:24) to different successful, you know, food and bed and wellness entrepreneurs. And then Shelly Lynch Sparks, who's the founder of Hyphen, is our design partner.

Alan Li (15:36) Got it. Yeah, your spaces are really beautiful. every time I pass by one. It's it's quite impressive. So ⁓ so and then okay, great. So now you're able to open the space. ⁓ how did you get the word out initially?

Michelle (15:40) Thank you.

Right.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think with any kind of go to market strategy it's it's a multi channel approach. you know, our with our very first space we relied really heavily on press and it was pretty easy to get amazing press actually 'cause we're the first person to ever create this type of a concept in the space. So it was pretty incredible that we're

in vogue in New York Times and you know, all those types of publications, you know, from opening and even pre-opening. ⁓ and, you know, that's kind of like tapered off. I mean we still get a lot of great press, but it's, you know, less of like a groundbreaking concept. And now, you know, our largest way of getting the word out is through our clients and referrals actually, which, you know, makes sense with the trajectory of the business. But we've also, you know, always relied upon

Local marketing is a really important strategy in terms of just partnering with all of the other businesses that are nearby us. It was really important for us to be located on the ground floor on busy streets so that we were able to, you know, partner with businesses but also just folks that live in the neighborhood and they can see and walk by and feel really great about walking into beautiful space.

Yeah, and then kind of like a variety of other things, whether it's events, influencers, ⁓ and then of course paid media as well.

Alan Li (17:16) Yeah. I'm curious how much of the, you know, on on the paid side of marketing is educational content versus awareness and how much ⁓ explaining there needs to be done for acupuncture and Chinese medicine, or are you just targeting people that are already doing acupuncture?

Michelle (17:32) Yeah.

Yeah, so our mission is really to introduce the medicine to new people that have never tried acupuncture before, and it ends up being over 60% of our clients who walk in the door have never tried EDR, which is something that we're really proud of. ⁓ and so I think there's a huge amount of education that we need to do, again, like as a category.

Alan Li (17:48) Mm.

Michelle (17:56) creating brand. There's I think of it as layers of an onion that you have to kind of like peel back. But we you know we kind of have to start with even fear of needles and the fact that acupuncture needles are not

you know, it's not the same as a hypodermic needle, it's not the same as a tattoo needle, it's more like a gentle cat whisker. ⁓ you know, and then all the way through, even just you know, as I mentioned, kind of my own personal experience was that I started with chronic pain and had no idea that there was all these other benefits. So absolutely explaining here's what the benefits are, here's what acupuncture is good for, but then you know, kind of diving deeper into here's what the medicine is, here's the history, here's the tradition, here's the culture behind it, and then also

The science as well, which is you know continuing to emerge, which is really exciting. But I think it's important to be able to peel away and explain all of those things. Even things like one of the most common questions that we get, you know, kind of after does it hurt is ⁓ what's the training of an acupuncturist? And people have no idea that acupuncturists have

Alan Li (19:00) Mm.

Michelle (19:04) you know, on top of a bachelor's degree, ⁓ either a master's degree or a six year doctorate degree, and it's very rigorous and intense clinical training that actually starts out, you know, with several years of study that's very similar to a Western medical education as well, in addition to, you know, the Eastern medicine components.

Alan Li (19:22) Yeah. I'm curious if you've noticed how perception towards Chinese medicine, acupuncture, has changed or evolved over the last ten or so years that you've been involved in the space. Cause I I remember ⁓ you know, I was drinking these herbal remedies that my parents would make, you know, when I was a child and ⁓ didn't really start hearing about this until maybe mid two thousand tens and then there's a lot of interest around it now.

Michelle (19:33) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's it's been incredible and I do think that like within is a part of the story, especially in New York, but also like at a national level in terms of helping spread the awareness and educate, ⁓ so that people are more familiar.

Even if they don't necessarily, you know, know exactly how it works, they've heard of it, which I think is like a huge step forward. ⁓ and then there's just some like major macro trends that have been really aligned with the work that we're doing with acupuncture and Chinese medicine. So, you know, I think with COVID it you know, obviously was a curse when we were

you know, in our infancy as a brand and had to close our studio, you know, very shortly after opening and and kind of figure all of that out. but it really put people in touch with their bodies and their health in a much bigger way in terms of particularly I'd say like around preventative care and kind of how can I take care of my immune system and what can I do to make sure that, you know, stress doesn't turn into like a chronic gut inflammation and and you know, things like that. And then

you know, we've started to see a destigmatization of menopause and perimenopause and women's health more broadly, which is really great because, you know, that's a a lot of the work that we do with acupuncture and Chinese medicine. and then what's been really interesting in the last even like twelve months is this

increasing focus on longevity and health span. ⁓ and that also, you know, is is acupuncture is really the original longevity medicine. ⁓ and so it it's ⁓

You know, that's I'd say more of you know, hopefully it's not a trend, but it's more of a trend, whereas, you know, we've been doing this for thousands of years, ⁓ with a real focus on what you're trying to achieve, whether that's better sleep, less stress, ⁓ you know, decreased inflammation in the body. And so pretty incredible that that's the conversation that's happening and we're just seamlessly a part of it.

Alan Li (21:57) Have you ⁓ invited Brian Johnson to your ⁓ your clinics yet or

Michelle (22:01) Not yet. Huberman was talking about acupuncture a couple weeks ago. It's definitely out there.

Alan Li (22:03) ⁓

Yeah.

so back to the the flat iron first location. ⁓ you know, ha you said that you had just opened briefly and then COVID happened. So ⁓ when when did it exactly open?

Michelle (22:21) We opened ⁓ in like December twenty eighteen. So twenty nineteen was like our first year of operations and then you know obviously the pandemic happened in early twenty twenty.

Alan Li (22:27) Yes, one year, okay.

Yeah.

Okay. And how big was that space and you know, how many ⁓ appointments could you have per day or how many seats were there?

Michelle (22:35) Yeah.

the flat iron space is ⁓ around 2,2200 square feet on the ground floor, and then we also have a basement, which is actually where I'm sitting right now. ⁓ where we our office is. and we you know can do you know on our busiest days it's like around 120 appointments. yeah.

Alan Li (22:49) Yeah.

wow.

And is it ⁓ is is everything ⁓ like booked by appointment or is it a subscription? How how does the business model work?

Michelle (23:09) Yeah, totally. ⁓ so it it's both. We take walk ins and and new clients and, you know, kind of non package, but really the core of our business is a membership model, which I think is

You know, by design for a couple of reasons. Number one, that's how we're able to bring the price point down. ⁓ and that's, you know, a big part of our mission of accessibility. And then two, it also really reflects how acupuncture works best, which is cumulatively. And so, you know, you can certainly get results in one session, but over time you're really changing the underlying

you know, hormonal balance in your body and things like that. So it is, you know, it's not a white pill that you know you you take once and are done. It's really about consistency and cumulative results. And then the third pillar of that's really important to the within brand is community. And so you know with our members we do a lot of events, a lot of s educational series and panels and things like that. And the idea is to bring together like mind

clients that you know sometimes are going through vulnerable situations together and we can help them feel less alone and learn from each other and things like that.

Alan Li (24:24) Yeah. ⁓ what has the feedback been from customers? Both the good and maybe more challenging feedback?

Michelle (24:31) Yeah. ⁓ well I mean I think like first and foremost what's the best part about what I get to do every day is that we've been able to have truly life-changing impact on so many different people for so many different reasons. So, you know, and it's not just like it happens occasionally, it's like every single day there's multiple stories that happen. And so, you know, I think some of the most obvious are when we're helping women through ⁓ you know, a fertility journey, right? ⁓ and they're

successfully get pregnant after having tried for years or tried lots of different things and you know this they you know was a really big one. You know, I think another kind of success story that's really incredible is when we work with clients that have a chronic illness and have been

felt like they're gaslit or not understood by Western medicine, but they come here and you know, we really focus on helping our clients feel seen and heard and appreciated. ⁓ and, you know, to be able to do that and then to translate that into actual ⁓ you know, medical results is is really incredible. and then, you know, we deal where we work with clients who, you know, maybe they work in a physical industry, whether they're

Alan Li (25:37) Yeah.

Michelle (25:44) A photographer or a massage therapist or a restaurateur and you know that lifestyle leads them to chronic pain or stress or you know, and then we're able to like actually help them get back to being able to, you know, make a livelihood. So those are just like a few examples. so that's like, you know, definitely the best part. And then I think, you know, one of our values as a brand is like we're aware that no one

before and that we need to like learn and pivot and grow. So one of our values is feedback is fuel and so we welcome all of the ⁓ you know kind of customer feedback in terms of what we can do differently or what we can do better. And there's just like, you know, tons of examples over time of of you know how we've improved.

Alan Li (26:20) Mm.

Michelle (26:35) Some of those examples that I think might be relevant are related to space design. And so we've been able to kind of change the configuration of our locations over time. ⁓

you know, we're always like really trying to deliver a hospitality focused experience. Sometimes that doesn't happen. You know, maybe a a manager at our studio or, you know, someone that's working there isn't having the best day and they don't deliver on that experience and, you know, that's disappointing, but we're able to turn that into turn that into coaching. ⁓ yeah.

Alan Li (27:03) Mm.

Z when you mean space design as in people didn't feel like there was enough space in it, or w what do you mean by space design?

Michelle (27:16) No, I I

what like the specific example that I'm thinking, so our flat iron location we have we don't have we have private rooms but the walls don't go all the way to the ceiling and we like that from just like the vibe and the aesthetic. but there can sometimes be like some complaints about noise and so in future locations we actually have like full height ⁓ ceilings.

Alan Li (27:38) Got

it. Got it. ⁓ and then since the flat iron location, it seems like there's an additional three more. And then I think you're also opening another one on upper east. So tell us a little bit about ⁓ you know, when you got the conviction like, okay, this is clearly working, let's expand and ⁓ how those expansions went.

Michelle (27:55) Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I think like from day one at our flat iron location we've kind of seen a a continuing positive trajectory and of new clients and members and things like that and felt really good about it. I think like the wrench

in in it for us was COVID. ⁓ so that just kind of set us back a couple of years and then we needed to essentially like rebuild and then exceed like where we had gotten to in our first year. And so we've essentially been expanding since t you know, twenty twenty three, and are continuing to do that. It's been I would say we've expanded in kind of an intentional and measured way, which has helped us understand ⁓

Our business even better. And now we're kind of getting to an inflection point where we're ready to start moving a lot faster and to start expanding outside of New York.

Alan Li (28:47) Hmm. and then I think you also raised an additional funding around from was El Catterton, or like around five million dollars. Okay. When when was that and was that money used to or planned to be used for, I guess, further growth and expansion or something else?

Michelle (28:52) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so

that was in early twenty twenty three and that was focused on opening our Williamsburg and ⁓ Upper West Side locations. ⁓ and you know, expanding our products and things like that.

Alan Li (29:21) Okay. So I mean, y you've been opening, it seems like about one every year and then y now it seems like you want to push the the pedal to the the gas a bit. ⁓ what what are z what are future expansion plans?

Michelle (29:25) Yeah, one or two a year. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yes.

⁓ so well I I think there's still opportunity in New York to expand into different neighborhoods and and things like that. ⁓ but definitely excited to expand. We've from day one we've had a vision for being a national footprint. and I think

also one of the reasons why we've really focused on accessibility from a price point but also just education standpoint is to be able to give us permission to expand outside of New York. ⁓ So we're we're, you know, no plans announced yet in terms of what markets, but we're constantly kind of developing and working with our board in terms of where we want to go next. And that would be, you know, post our next raise.

Alan Li (30:17) Mm. Okay. and how much do the herbs and the, you know, acupressure mats and the supplemental products ⁓ account for ⁓ in terms of, you know, maybe top line? Like how how important is that or core is that to the the business?

Michelle (30:30) Yeah.

yeah, it's around fifteen to twenty percent of the business, kinda fluctuates a little bit. ⁓ today. I think there's like a lot of upside potential to that in the long term. ⁓ so and like I said, I think it's important to the business today for

Client results, but also ⁓ it's a really great way for us to establish ourselves in other markets ⁓ before we enter there from a brick and mortar perspective. And so we have a track record of having a retail presence in markets like LA and Miami and also doing events there, you know, through our retail partners or things like that. And that helps us better understand the customer base, helps us have some data in terms of where we'd want to open and things like

Alan Li (30:59) Yeah.

Yeah. Well it seems like you're also in, you know, over two hundred retail partners, ⁓ which is extremely impressive. how how are you doing both businesses? Because they're, you know, could be completely separate businesses, right?

Michelle (31:22) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. well it's not for the faint of heart, one. ⁓ but two, I mean the the like I keep really emphasizing is that they really are related and so you know a large our largest distribution channel for our products is our own studios. ⁓ and so

Alan Li (31:33) Ha ha ha.

Mm.

Michelle (31:49) you know, I think that that kind of sets the foundation and then obviously we work with other retail partners and I think what we're you know really working towards is is making sure that we have the right structure infrastructure to support both. ⁓ and you know today we've really focused on the studios as the core with the products business being particularly with external partners being more or of an organic ⁓ and inbound.

We haven't put a ton of money or spend behind direct consumer. but that's definitely something that we'll we'll start to focus on more in the future.

Alan Li (32:20) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well how how what is your team structure like?

Michelle (32:29) Yeah, I mean we're still I would say a lean corporate team. we our our studio teams are where the bulk of our employees are because we have, you know, a large population of acupuncturist at each studio plus, you know, management, front desk, facilities, things like that.

Alan Li (32:48) but on the corporate team, like how how many people like

Michelle (32:50) Yeah, we're less than ten

people today, so

Alan Li (32:53) ⁓ okay. And then ⁓ is there someone focused just on retail, someone focused on the herbal size, someone focused on growth, or how is it structured?

Michelle (33:02) Sure. ⁓ so we have a head of product development who's fractional, ⁓ is an acupuncturist that focuses on the product development. And then we have a director of studio operations who really oversees everything. But then underneath her sh there's a head of acupuncturists and a head of retail. ⁓ and so they, you know, kind of all work together to make sure that ⁓ we're able to deliver on the

customer experience, support our population of acupuncturists, maintain compliance with healthcare regulations and things like that. And then you know I'd say our other team is marketing and we have, you know, several team members that focus on different channels and a variety of full-time and part-time team members.

Alan Li (33:47) I

see. ⁓ and how has your role changed since twenty eighteen to twenty twenty six? What were you focusing on then and spending most of your time doing and what are you doing now?

Michelle (33:56) Yeah.

⁓ you know, I think like for me, I still feel like I wear a lot of different hats and, you know, oversee everything from finance to marketing to ops. but I think where it's changed is obviously just having more support. So now it's more of ⁓ kind of strategy and oversight versus like in the weeds doing everything. ⁓ you know, because definitely when we opened I was at the front desk every day and, you know, doing whatever it took at the studio. ⁓ and now

you know, I'm definitely more spread out across studios. So it's less like execution and more implementing systems of scale is what we're saying. ⁓ and then I still, you know, spend a lot of time with investor relations and fundraising and and things like that. ⁓ yeah. And then I, you know, I think continue continue to be our biggest evangelist and try to get the word out about

Alan Li (34:51) Yeah, that's great. ⁓ and then ⁓ I think your next location you're also opening up in the upper west, is that correct? ⁓ the upper east side.

Michelle (35:02) Upper East. So Upper West is open

⁓ and is a great location. And interestingly enough, the both Upper East and Upper West used to be dry bar and now those locations had closed and we've taken them over. So they're actually very similar in terms of like build out and design. ⁓ but yeah, Upper East is opening two nine East Seventy Sixth at Third Avenue ⁓ on June twenty-sixth, which is super exciting.

Alan Li (35:11) ⁓

Exciting.

⁓ and then for people that ⁓ are just starting out and interesting in opening a space in New York City, I know that, you know, if you had gone from zero to now opening potentially five. What what advice do you have for people who are trying to open in New York?

Michelle (35:38) Yeah.

Find an amazing real estate lawyer. ⁓ find an amazing broker. ⁓ and then like, yeah, find I mean for me it was really helpful to to have founders either be advisors or investors that have done it before and done it multiple times, ⁓ because that's they've seen it all, right? It's like I think in real estate in New York, like there's no such thing as like

Alan Li (35:45) Ha ha ha.

Michelle (36:09) a y one size fits all, like every deal is custom and every landlord is different and there's like different nuances. So you wanna be able to learn from people that have really seen it all and can help advise on different situations.

Alan Li (36:24) Yeah,

definitely. ⁓ and then also on the venture funding route, ⁓ what are your thoughts on ⁓ prospective, you know, people opening spaces going the venture route versus trying to bootstrap? And I know obviously if the build out is, you know, extremely expensive, there may not be a choice. But if you did have a choice, ⁓ how how would you think about it?

Michelle (36:29) Yeah.

a few things. I think I mean if you can bootstrap I'd I tend to think that's always like the route to to pursue. ⁓ at least until you get to a certain proof of concept because then you have like a stronger perspective when you're going out to raise money. ⁓ and then I think, you know, secondarily is

not all venture understands brick and mortar and some say that they do and then they don't and you know we've definitely gone down a rabbit hole with, you know, a fund that we thought really like actually was interested in brick and mortar only to like get to the end and they're like, we're actually not gonna do four walls. So I would say, you know, make sure that they already have existing portfolio companies that are brick and mortar and that they're truly like behind that 'cause it's important 'cause it's a different return horizon and

Alan Li (37:29) Mm.

Michelle (37:41) it takes a lot different set of skills and operating metrics and things like that ⁓ to be successful in brick and mortar space. So I'd just make sure you find partners that truly get it.

Alan Li (37:52) Yeah.

and is did you also consider alternate forms of funding outside of just venture capital? Or is there also like I don't know, potentially private equity, more traditional private equity capital or

Michelle (38:04) Well, Ketterton is private

equity. That's our, you know, lead investor now. ⁓ but, you know, PE doesn't come in until later. So that's that's definitely the move later on, ⁓ once you've established proof of concept. And we're even like very early stage. We're in kind of an emerging fund that they had structured to test out the hypothesis of investing in earlier stage companies that could then, you know, feed into their

Alan Li (38:08) yes.

Mm.

Michelle (38:32) more traditional growth portfolio.

Alan Li (38:35) Okay, gotcha. ⁓ you know, what what's taking up most of your time right now and and what's on the roadmap for for this year?

Michelle (38:43) Yeah, I mean definitely our Upper East Side opening is like top of mind, which we're so excited. We've wanted to be in that neighborhood since we opened our flat iron location, but you know, because of our disciplined strategy around deals and rent and economics, we just hadn't found a location that fit until now. So we're super excited about that. And then raising our growth round of funding to be able to scale outside of New York.

Alan Li (39:09) Okay.

and you're planning to do that over this year or is it next year?

Michelle (39:13) Yeah,

yeah, yeah, within you know, probably Q three.

Alan Li (39:16) Okay. how many locations of within do you think there could be throughout the US if you know all goes according to plan?

Michelle (39:25) Yeah, so our growth plan really calls for like sixty plus locations, but I can easily see, you know, eighty to a hundred. For me, like the magic number would be a hundred. but again, like pointing to accessibility of the concept and the brand is we've really structured ourselves with that in mind.

Alan Li (39:45) Okay. and is the plan eventually, I don't know, to sell to another business, IPO, to run it as a cash flowing business? What what is the plan longer term?

Michelle (39:57) I mean I think that there's a number of different ⁓ longer term potential that you know we're working towards kind of any of those, but there's definitely a PE acquisition, there's, you know, roll-ups happening of, you know, like-minded wellness brands by strategic players. And I think for us there's also a lot of activity happening within the healthcare space specifically, ⁓ that that's interesting in terms of different types of consolidation and mergers.

Alan Li (40:23) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (40:27) and things like that. So kind of keeping our eye on both strategic ⁓ acquisitions and exquisites as well as financial exit.

Alan Li (40:36) Yeah. And have you also considered ⁓ acquiring other acupuncture clinics and converting them to withins as a faster way to grow as well?

Michelle (40:44) Yeah, we'd have definitely looked at that type of a gross strategy and are and would think of it I think it would really make a lot of sense outside of New York. ⁓ so we've definitely been thinking about that as well and identified ⁓ there's not like a huge amount of, you know, kind of multi unit studio concepts that exist, but even individual practices could be really attractive as a way to enter a new market.

Alan Li (40:51) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Cool. ⁓ what is your current ⁓ wellness plan or structure? How how often do you get acupuncture? ⁓ what kind of herbs do you take? and for what?

Michelle (41:15) Yeah.

All of the herbs. I take all the herbs. ⁓ yeah, no, it's it's my non-negotiable in terms of an acupuncture session a week. Lately I've been alternating every other week body acupuncture and then facial acupuncture, which is an innovation that we launched at the end of last year. ⁓ and is could be an alternative to Botox. so it's yeah, it's really amazing, stimulates production of collagen, helps reduce spine line and wrinkles, can also actually do it with Botox.

Alan Li (41:41) wow.

Michelle (41:49) is a way to make sure that you're getting circulation and blood flow and things like that underneath. But we combine it with washaw and red light. So it's it's been a really fun innovation and has definitely opened us up into a more of a beauty audience as well. And so love welcoming you know new clients in. But what I love about facial is that you also get a lot of the same body benefits as well.

Alan Li (42:04) Yeah.

Hmm.

And and how what is the what is the focus? Because I know that acupuncture can be good for a lot of different ⁓ you know things like the facial, but then general health. And we we talked about longevity before. You know, how how do you pick which one to focus on, or is it you know, you're you're tapping into many different ones.

Michelle (42:22) Yeah.

Yes, our top three are really stress, anxiety, depression, chronic pain, acute pain, kind of like pain of all types, whether that's tech neck, migraines, carpal tunnels, sciatica, just slow back, shoulder, ⁓ pain, and then digestive health. ⁓ so that could be anything from metabolism support to ulcerative colitis. And then, you know, probably after that the largest category is women's health.

Alan Li (42:48) Mm.

Michelle (42:59) kind of across the board from psycho regulation to fertility to menopause.

Alan Li (43:04) I

see. ⁓ so your target market is I assume women probably ages, you know, twenty to forty or twenty to fifty or something or

Michelle (43:14) You know, I th we s we tend to see slightly older clients because you know your health starts to I think make you feel less invincible once you hit 30. not that we don't see we even see like teens and things like that working on anxiety or hormonal acne. ⁓ and then you know I think we definitely skew you know well beyond just 40 to 50 into the 60s and things like that. ⁓ and then we've seen it, you know, it's definitely more women than men, but that's been deep.

Alan Li (43:21) Yeah.

Michelle (43:44) Decreasing over time, which I think is great, and is also just you know consistent with what happens across wellness industries. So amazing.

Alan Li (43:50) Yeah, makes sense. ⁓

well, awesome. Like looking back on, you know, this probably eight plus year journey, ⁓ and knowing everything that you know now, ⁓ is there anything that you would have changed if you can go back in time?

Michelle (44:06) Ooh, I mean I wish COVID hadn't happened. That's like, you know, kind of the number one thing. you know, I mean I think it's like smaller tweaks here and there or, you know, ⁓ but generally I've been relatively happy with kind of the trajectory of, you know, how how things have gone. and I'm looking forward to accelerating our expansion.

Alan Li (44:09) Ha ha ha ⁓

Awesome.

Well, Michelle, this has been a lot of fun. ⁓ if people want to follow along or or reach out, what's the best way for them to do so?

Michelle (44:36) You too.

⁓ you can just follow us at on Instagram and TikTok at Within W T H N Without The Eyes and then our website is within dot com without the eyes also.

Alan Li (44:52) All right. Well, if anyone needs acupuncture in New York and hopefully beyond, they'll know where to go. But ⁓ really appreciate you taking the time, Shell.

Michelle (44:59) Amazing.

Thanks Alan. It was so great to chat. Have a good one. All right, bye.

Alan Li (45:04) Yeah.